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Author Topic: New Member with SRMA - lots of questions  (Read 6389 times)

Jo CIMDA

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Re: New Member with SRMA - lots of questions
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2018, 10:41:34 AM »

That is a lovely post Annie and so positive.  Good news!

The vaccines with an 'adjuvant' included are usually the killed virus vaccines (not the live attenuated ones)  and they need the chemical adjuvant to stimulate the immune system in order for the vaccine to have any effect.  Also these vaccines do not last as long as the live attenuated vaccines such as parvo, distemper and hepatitis.  This is quite an interesting article. 

http://www.safarivet.com/care-topics/dogs-and-cats/vaccinations/killed-vaccines/

Take a look at the WSAVA vaccination guidelines website.

It is said that the killed virus vaccines with an adjuvant, such as lepto, are more likely to trigger an adverse reaction than the live vaccine. 

Dogs that have had an AI disease should not be vaccinated again because the risks outweigh the benefits.

I hope the other tests come back favourable.

Jo
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Annie Jackson

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Re: New Member with SRMA - lots of questions
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2018, 06:22:33 PM »

Hi Jo
That makes sense as both boys had Lepto, Finn lepto 2 and Loki Lepto 4.
Will check out the web site you sent..
I didnít start really looking into the make up of vaccines until after Loki was diagnosed- it hit me like a steamroller- which is why I refused to have them piggy backed onto one another.  And yet it could well have been just the Lepto in both cases that did the deadly deed.
Something I will never be 100% certain about.  I even asked the nurse at the surgery who took over the vacccine procedure once the vet had examined the pups and given the first shot.  I got to know her quite well because of Finn and she said that in her 5 years there she had not known of a reaction to Lepto in any pup.  So I went ahead.  After Lokiís diagnosis I learned that Lepto only lasts a matter of months anyway. Hey ho!  My boys wonít be vaccinated again and there is no point in having them titre tested anyway as nothing can be done.   We wash them down after every run out in the fields, woods and parks in fact their paws get washed even it we have just gone around the roads where we live.  Gotta cover all bases to minimise any risk - as they say - every little helps!!
Vet phoned with CRP results - surprise - Finnís was 37 and Lokiís 9 - the norm is 10 and under.  Shock at Finnís as everything appeared perfect.  Finn has to stay on 10mg pred a day for a while longer and Loki on 5 every other day until I speak with the vet on Wednesday.
Finn doesnít show any behavioural issues from the pred but Loki still does even at this level so I want to lower it as soon as possible. 
He was a star at agility on Saturday all thanks to a cardboard box with screwed up paper and a handful of tiny treats.  He was so busy foraging that he ignored all the goings on in the class until it was his turn and handled everything like a pro.  The trainer is keeping everything small and controlled so that he can safely enjoy himself - heís still only 17 months so no need to rush - although rush is his middle name!  He just does everything so easily he is quite an athletic pup so we have to save him from himself.
A friend mentioned that the pups from their bloodline are late maturing, another good reason not to push them. 
Just that one simple thing - the cardboard box - has made so much of a difference to me and the way I react to Lokiís antics that there are hardly any incidents at all.  Smiley faces everywhere. Donít take my eyes off whatís going on but no worries now.
I will pass on that link to a friend who has Finnís aunties and half sisters just for interest.  She has not had any AI problems with her girls.  As you first said I am just so unlucky - lightening can strike twice!!
Thank you again and again Jo

Annie
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Jo CIMDA

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Re: New Member with SRMA - lots of questions
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2018, 02:58:41 PM »

Hi Annie

Your two boys sound delightful and it is so good that they can have fun and enjoy life.  That is what it should be like! 

I think the majority of us learn the hard way and it take a while to get our head around this whole vaccination and preventative treatment thing. We have been indoctrinated for decades.  I am so pleased you have arrived at being happy with your decisions.   The boys will be healthier for it.

Jo
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Susanjd

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Re: New Member with SRMA - lots of questions
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2018, 11:30:57 AM »

Hi , I've been following MMUNS story, and would like to offer my good wishes for a steady recovery of both pups, and to say how extraordinary, and so very sad it is to hear that both pups are fighting SRMA.  Your story, however, has made me rethink mine and Zeus's relationship with the disease.

I remember hearing from our breeder, a few months before Zeus first presented with SRMA in January 2017, and she informed me that one of Zeus's siblings had meningitis, then 8 months later Zeus was battling the disease!  Our breeder assured me that there was not a genetic link, and being a bit of a novis, I had no reason not believe her.  However, it's become clear to me from the information CIMDA have given here that there is a strong possibility that my Zeus and his sibling contracted their AI issues from their parents genes.  Both mum and dad were owned by the breeder, who is highly regarded in the whippet circle, and 5 generation papers accompanied my pup.  I would say though that she has been in regular contact with me throughout the period since he became ill in January 2017, and I have given her regular updates on progress.  Zeus's sibling is now in remission. Zeus is still fighting his way to remission.

Sending prayers and hugs to MMUNS precious pups and hope things improve soon.  And thanks to CIMDA for the information on this post, including the links and information relating to flee and worming treatment which is invaluable. Thanks.

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Jo CIMDA

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Re: New Member with SRMA - lots of questions
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2018, 05:32:42 PM »

Hi

I am pleased to know that Zeus and his sibling are doing well. 

Thank you for the update and the support for others.

Jo
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Annie Jackson

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Re: New Member with SRMA - lots of questions
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2018, 01:01:52 PM »

Hi Jo,
Just been reading about Zeus and SRMA, looks like this AI is cropping up a lot more.  Fingers, and paws, crossed that he continues towards remission.
I have been researching a lot and asking questions and have found out quite a few things that you may be able to look at in more depth than I have access to.
Going back to when Finn and Loki were 9 and 8 weeks old respectively.  Fin had a very severe infestation of Giardia which took many months, and a new vet, to clear.  Loki had Giardia, campylobacter and cryptosporidium.  These parasites can damage the gut and lead to Leaky Gut, which may well be the case with my boys, which could have triggered an AI response.  Although SRMA is the result of a genetic fault on the immune system, it still needs a trigger to set it off.
Cryptosporidium, I have read, is caused by pups eating contaminated faeces and/or drinking contaminated water.
I must add that I could well be adding 2 and 2 and getting 5!!  I am not qualified to say that any of this is a certainty but the more I learn about their breeder and the fact that she will not have any contact with me since Lokiís diagnosis does ring a few warning bells.
Also my boys are having problems coming off the steroids, both relapsing when a low, every other day, dose is reached.  Finn is now on 3 1/2 every other day and Loki on 4 every other day.
Keeping in mind what an Holistic vet said I.e a species appropriate diet is best I am now feeding Raw along with supplements to help reduce the damage the steroids are doing to Finn physically and Loki emotionally.  To help with the Leaky Gut (just in case) they are now having Bone Broth every day which is said to help heal the gut. There is no way of knowing for certain if this is the case but Bone Broth will only do them good anyway and is said to help maintain healthy joints, ligaments, tendons, muscles etc all of which can suffer as a result of long term steroid use.  Both boys have been on steroids since they were 6 months old - Finn is now 4 1/2 and Loki 2 years old.  I can see that poor Finnís joints are troublesome the worst being his left elbow with the dysplasia.  He did have Cartrophen injections but have had him on Riaflex Joint Plus and their New Zealand Green Lipped Mussel for some time and for the most part he can enjoy himself doing Hoopers and Rally O.  I stopped Lokiís Agility for a while as he was so fast he wasnít listening and have been doing Hoopers (not as advanced as Finn) and RallyO and hopefully will start Agility again soon. The more he learns and does the happier he is, as I said before he should have been a working sheepdog. One more thing about Cryptosporidium - remembering the breeder told me that Loki would be no use to me as he had Ďno driveí.  The symptom of Cryptosporidium are Lethargy and no interest in play and death!!
Makes ones head spin.
Annie x
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Jo CIMDA

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Re: New Member with SRMA - lots of questions
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2018, 05:18:28 PM »

Hi Annie

Despite your boys still being on a low dose of steroids they, and you, have done so well especially as they are active and enjoying life again. Bone broth, as you say, can only do them good.

All that you have written is very relevant and I am quite shocked that both of your pups had such a bad infestation and this does not reflect well on the breeder.

There are lots of links to the unhealthy gut and AI disease in humans, so why not in dogs? I believe this subject is so huge and so much is still unknown that it is impossible to put 2 and 2 together without making 5.

As more studies are undertaken things will become clearer but the two main factors are first, a genetic predisposition which is like a ticking time bomb waiting for the touch paper to be lit, and second, a trigger that activates or stimulates the aberrant immune system which produces attacking immune cells that are programmed to destroy, for example,  the thyroid, or red blood cells etc..... These triggers are numerous and all around us.

It was explained to me some years ago by an eminent veterinary professor that even dogs from the same litter that have a genetic predisposition to AI disease may respond differently to triggers, and a dog may have encountered a trigger previously without any adverse effect or triggering of an AI response, and at a later date the same dog may encounter the same trigger which results in an adverse immune response and this, he said, is because other factors may come into play which produce a different set of circumstances, such as hormones, stress, drugs etc....... It is so very complicated.

My girl had a litter of 8 pups, and 7 out of the 8 eventually developed a variety of different AI diseases, some pups got more than one AI disease throughout their life, and one of the dogs got SLE, a multi-systemic AI disease that involves numerous body systems.  He must have had autoantibodies that targeted at least 6 different systems of his body.  Thankfully SLE is not common.

So it is a specific combination of genes that predisposes a dog to developing say, hypothyroidism,  and it is a different combination of inherited genes that will predispose his brother to SRMA? I don't know. 

What is the role of different potential triggers in individual dogs who develop AI disease?

Do specific triggers play a part in determining which AI disease the dog develops?

Do they influence specific AI diseases, or is that purely down to the combination of genes?  It is known that vaccination can trigger IMPA  and IMHA.

What makes a dog develop, for example, SRMA and then sometime later develop hypothyroidism?  Why wasn't it the other way around if the dog has the genetic predisposition to both AI diseases? Why didn't the dog get them both at once? What role does the trigger play?  I have known dogs to have a total of 4 different AI diseases on separate occasions throughout their life.  For a dog to develop different AI diseases within its lifetime it has to have the genetic predisposition for those particular diseases, so do the triggers influence what AI disease develops? I don't know.

There are definitely more questions than answers.

I wish I could answer them.  If you find out anything, please let me know.

Jo
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