Help possible thyroid problem

Started by fee, May 11, 2015, 07:03:13 PM

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fee

Hi,
I have a bitch who over the last 8 months has become suddenly aggressive towards an older bitch we have (she has only lived with us for the last 2.5years - the older bitch). There is 2 puppies who also live with us (hers) but she never attacks them no matter how much abuse they give her! These aggressive attacks fortunately have been few and far between but are very violent (she will not release) and I have been badly bitten twice trying to break it up, which I know is dangerous but I cannot stand back and let this go on!. We have consulted a behaviourist and have been working with her but the attacks still happen and they are very unpredictable. On advice we have had her tested for hypothyroidism although she displays none of the characteristic clinical signs , but she does display aggressive behaviour, blank expression (staring into space), hyperactivity, her appetite has increased over the past few months also, her coat has lost some condition but not overly so and no dry skin.
I have to say the bitch she attacks she is almost OCD about and is her mother, but they have lived together for approx 2 years with only the usual minor scuffles that you get but these recent attacks are violent!
We took her to be tested for Hypothyroidism and have just got the results back as follows:
TgAA - Negative
Cholesterol - 7.07 (normal range 3.2 - 6.2)
T4 - 18.0 ( NR 13 - 51)
TSH - 0.17 (NR 0- 0.5)
Free T4 - 18.7 (NR 7.7 -47.6)
Antibodies - Negative.

These results were taken over the phone but I should have a copy of the report tomorrow, so will hopefully be able to give more information, my Vet says this is not a thyroid problem but this is beyond my expertise and would appreciate any advice. I cannot see how this is a behavioural problem , this bitch has been a wonderfully natured bitch since we got her as a puppy, was a wonderful mother , a wonderful show dog and most of all a wonderful companion who I would have said is "bomb proof"  :). We are so worried about this as the attacks are unpredictable and very sudden, we have at the moment got her on herbal calming tablets which seem to have changed her personality already...she is playing more with toys etc, but is still OCD in some ways.
Any help, advice, thoughts would be much appreciated
Fee

patp

Was the behaviourist from either COAPE or APBC? If so, did they explain that some bitches just cannot live together? It is a territorial thing and nothing to do with either of their temperaments or personalities. It probably stems from wanting to dilute the gene pool though they do not have to be related or even of the same breed for it to happen. It is generally considered to be intractable.
It is almost impossible to cure and often results in one of the dogs being rehomed. They then lead perfectly blame free lives away from all the stress of sharing territory with the other bitch. It is nothing to do with their temperaments but comes from a deep seated instinct that they have no control over.
Of course you should investigate all avenues of medical causes but just thought I would mention the above.
I hope you find a solution.

Jo CIMDA

Hi Fee and welcome

It's good you have had her thyroid tested. Her thyroid results are fine and you have to believe the results and now start to look elsewhere. Please don't be tempted to put her on thyroid hormone supplementation.

Do these attacks coincide with hormone fluctuation, eg., coming up to a season or just after? If so you might consider spaying her. That could make all the difference.

Is she in pain?

Is the other bitch well? Do you think she is giving of signs/smells of being unwell which this bitch doesn't like?

I wonder if her cortisol level is high (Cushing's syndrome), which may cause her to be on edge?  Perhaps a full biochemical blood test might indicate a problem.

Unprovoked and sudden aggression can be due to a brain dysfunction, such as a tumour, but (and I am no expert by any means) the fact that she targets one dog in your pack might suggest that it is a personal issue (for some reason she resents this other bitch) and it is not generalised, sporadic aggression that might occur with a brain disorder.  Has there been an occasion where you favoured the older bitch and she witnessed this special attention?  In my experience, jealous behaviour doesn't resolve, no matter how much education your girl has, but I hope Penel will see your message and she will be able to give you much more expert advice.

I too have been badly caught by two dogs fighting and I truly sympathise.  It is incredibly painful and so much damage can be done with just one bite.

I hope you find a solution soon.

Jo

fee

Hi Allan here (Fee's Husband)
I am posting as Fee is away on business for a couple of days.
First of all thanks to you both for your responses, it's great to have feedback so quickly.
I would like to start with some more background and then I will answer any questions you both have asked in your feedback.
Fee and I have owned and bred this breed for some 30 years, we have taken in rescues and re-homes many times and kept them alongside our own pack. In doing so we have came across some issues both behavioural and clinical and yes had to work hard sometimes and this experience has,  I believe has given us a good knowledge and insight to this breed of dog.
About 5 years ago we lost our last bitch, we had let our numbers dwindle naturally due to other family commitments, so after a short while we purchased a new Puppy. This puppy which is the bitch we are discussing entered the household and yes as an only "child" she probably was a bit spoiled.
Approx 2 years later our puppies breeder passed away and her family were looking for a home for our puppies Mother who was 9 yrs old and no family member could home her. So she came to live with us originally on a trial basis. We were aware that as our pup had been raised as a single dog in the house we could face some jealousy issues and made sure both dogs got equal treatment and attention. This pair settled really well and got on great with no real problems, sure we had occasional disagreements but nothing more than what we consider to be normal behaviour.
Our pup matured and after a couple more years we decided to breed her, the two of them had become good friends and the hierarchy had apparently been sorted and we felt comfortable with the relationship.
The litter arrived and all was well, she had an easy whelp and the puppies were fit and healthy, she allowed her Mother to see the babies and had zero issues with any contact between them "all in the garden was rosy" We kept 2 pups, a boy & a girl and they are now approx 15 months old.  During the puppies first 9 months or so we had no issues with any of the 4 dogs they all played and lived together really well.
This issue between Gran & Mum has only surfaced within the last 7 or 8 months or so and has us both baffled and extremely concerned, the ferociousness of the few attacks is frightening. The bitch is now 5 years old and has never shown signs of aggression to any other animal or person, she has been thoroughly examined by our Vet all limbs pulled twisted all other parts prodded etc. all without a muzzle or even a cross word, in fact our Vet's words were "I cannot believe this dog is aggressive"
So there we are, the story so far, we have heard of the thyroid problem and also of this type of single point aggression being seen as an early indication prior to the onset of the classic symptoms which is why we had the test done.
In answer to you Pat, yes we have considered the personality/ territorial explanation but to be honest we would have expected that to surface long time ago and did watch for this in the initial re-homing stages. These 2 dogs will often eat out the same bowls drink out the same bowls and continue to sleep in the same room with no issues in fact 99% no 99.9% of the time they appear to be great pals.
Jo, let me answer your easy questions first, no she is not in pain she had a very thorough exam by our Vet of many years, and no there does not appear to be any link to season, in fact the last attack occurred about 3 months after her last season so she is probably right in the middle at that time.
The older bitch appears healthy but you mentioning smell is interesting as we have noticed that all of our dogs do spend more than what we could consider normal smelling her back end and she has slight incontinence issues generally associated with older spayed bitches for which she is on a herbal remedy which does appear to be working? Again if it was a scent issue we would expect a more regular attack. Your comment on her Cortisol level is interesting and one we will certainly look into in further detail and will keep you posted.
As far as favouring the older bitch we have to say no as we were aware of this when she came and all our dogs young and old are treated with equal amounts of love and attention.
Yes her thyroid results do look fine, though T4 although within normal range is on the low side, also her cholesterol being high is a surprise as she is fed raw is well exercised and to quote Vet "incredibly fit"
We are aware and have read papers on dogs previously been tested for thyroid (panel 5) found to be ok and when tested to full panel 7 found to be low and successfully treated,  we are also very aware that it is possible we are so desperate to solve this we may be becoming "blinkered".
My apologies for the length of the post but if anyone reading this can provide any insight then it has been worth writing. We love all our dogs so much they are all so much part of our family and we will do whatever it takes to ensure there happy and healthy for as long as we can.
Thanks again.

Jo CIMDA

Hi Allan

It is such a shame and I appreciate the difficult situation you are in; and realise how desperate you are to find a cause so this problem can be resolved.

Three months after a season one would think the hormones should have returned to the normal hormonal resting phase but I not sure this is true if say, your bitch regularly comes into season every 9-12 months.

Do you think this aggression could have anything to do with the two pups maturing and becoming adults?  Has that changed the dynamics of your family and is the mother feeling she has to be top bitch to defend them?

If the others are interested and sniffing at the older dog, perhaps she should have a urine sample tested or a full biochemical blood test done.

This is a quote regarding the reference range for laboratory testing from BSAVA Manual of Canine and Feline Clinical Pathology

"A reference range is defined as the entire range of values (actual minimum to maximum measured values) obtained for a test on a population of healthy, non-diseased animals.  In practice, a reference interval is used, which is the interval between an upper and lower limit and commonly includes the central 95% of apparently healthy 'normal' reference population determined by statistical methods."

So a value anywhere within the reference range should be considered normal for any individual dog, but read in conjunction with other values for specific tests, for example:

A dog with a normal thyroid will show all values to be within normal reference range, regardless of where the reading is within the reference range.

A dog with an underactive thyroid one would expect to see:

A high TSH, a low FT4 and a low TT4 - and very important, should be exhibiting clinical signs associated with hypoT.

Sometimes when a dog is showing clinical signs of going hypoT and the thyroid is struggling to produce TT4 you may see a suspicious low, but within reference range, for TT4 and FT4 but an increasing TSH, indicating that the thyroid still producing enough thyroid hormone for the dog to function but it is craving more stimulating hormone, hence the rise in TSH.  This dog should be tested again in a few weeks or so to see if the TT4 and FT4 is further reduced, and the TSH continuing to increase. If this is so and the clinical signs reflect the blood results you know that your dog will soon be totally hypoT and you will have to consider starting replacement hormone treatment probably sooner rather than later!

Your girl's thyroid values are all within the normal reference range, and also she is negative to antibodies (which doesn't mean that much because often a dog with hypoT has negative antibodies anyway) so she has a normal functioning thyroid.  She is also "incredibly fit" and a dog with an under active thyroid isn't incredibly fit.

NTI

The TT4 can be affected,  and the level show under the reference range in a dog with a normal thyroid as a result of being on certain drugs or has a hormone imbalance, especially in bitches (known as a non thyroidal illness - NTI). It is quite rare for the FT4 to be affected by outside influences, therefore this is often the more reliable T4 test.

Also larger and medium size dogs normally have a lower T4 values than smaller dogs.  Sighthounds also have a naturally lower T4 hormone reading than other breeds, as do older dogs.  So it is not as easy as saying her levels are in the lower part of the reference range so she might be hypoT. 

"Healthy dogs exhibit fluctuation of Total T4 values below the reference range on a daily basis". (Miller et al 1992)

It would have been great if her thyroid levels had come back indicating she is hypoT, it might have been the answer to your prayers, but they haven't and  hormone treatment shouldn't be given if she doesn't need it.  Far better to let her thyroid glands produce naturally.


Although her cholesterol is over the reference range I don't think it is significantly high enough to have any implication on thyroid her reading.  High cholesterol in the dog doesn't have the same health implications as it does in humans.

I hope someone else here will be able to give you some good advice about the management of your girl.  You have loads of experience and have probably tried most things.

Jo

fee

Hi Jo,
Thank you for all the information, it is very much appreciated. We have at this stage after many discussions, research and obviously discussions with our Vet decided that the thyroid is probably not the issue. Our vet is keen for a behaviourist to see her but I have to say we think if it was a behavioural problem it would have manifested itself long before this and bearing in mind that 95% of the time the two bitches, eat and drink from the same bowl, sleep together and generally have no issues whatsoever. The dynamics of the family have not changed in any way either. It is like just every so often a switch flicks and she attacks, although this does seem to be in highly excitable situations like coming back from a walk into the back garden for instance, but we are learning to identify these situations and keep control of her, the switch still seems to flick but the opportunity to attack is removed. The blank staring into space "like nobody is home" is a mystery, but again it is like a switch!

We have decided before going any further we are going to do a complete blood profile which if nothing else will hopefully rule out a few things and we will assess from there. We will keep you posted.

Again thanks for all your help & time.

Allan & Fee

Jo CIMDA

Hi Allan & Fee

I wonder if the 'switch' is a chemical change in her brain?  I knew someone who had a dog like this and the dog used to attack him for no reason.  The owner said it was like a glaze came over his eyes. After the attack the dog was absolutely normal and as sweet as pie again.

I hope you can find a reason soon.  It must be so difficult living in a multiple dog house with this problem.

Jo


fee

Hi Jo,

Yes we are wondering that too, maybe some sort of imbalance which fires off under some situations? What happened with that dog do you know , but that sounds exactly what it is like!

It is difficult but fortunately not all the dogs are involved, but we have to watch the pups don't get in the mix thinking they are defending their Mum. Just now is just a juggling act , till we can hopefully get some answers.

Thanks again

Allan & Fee x


Jo CIMDA

Hi Allan and Fee

Sudden aggression or a dog having a seizure is so difficult in a multi dog household because the others may get involved too, which is natural in a pack situation.

I know the owners of this dog well and they would shift heaven and earth for their dogs if it helped, but after several unprovoked 'episodes' of aggression without serious injury, unfortunately, the owner got so very badly bitten that they had no choice but to PTS.  I remembering him saying to me that you wouldn't believe the difference in before and after an attack, and it couldn't be predicted until his countenance changed which was just prior to an attack. The poor dog couldn't help it. He was about 7 years old. The vet said it sounded like he was having 'brainstorms' but without an MRI scan it could not be diagnosed.  It was a huge decision for the dog's owners.  I hope you don't feel this is necessary for your girl. 

I do wonder if you removed the older bitch for a while if things would settle down. Having the older girl out of the house might give you a clearer and truer picture of the aggressive one's behaviour.  Although you might not want to, rehoming the older bitch might be the best for everyone. 

Jo

Penel CIMDA moderator

If you're anywhere near Surrey I would highly recommend seeing Amber Batson, she's a veterinary behaviourist (meaning she's a vet and a behaviourist) based at Priory Vets in Reigate.  I'm a behaviourist and we work with Amber sometimes and she is really great.
The 'staring into space' you're describing could well be partial seizures.  You absolutely need a specialist in on this case.  It's not uncommon for bitches who live together to take a sudden 'unexplainable' dislike to each other unfortunately especially if hormones are involved as well.
If you're not near Surrey, then Jon Bowen is in Brighton I think, or Helen Zulch and Daniel Mills at University of Lincoln - all veterinary behaviourists.
Penel
(SLE, Surrey - UK)
Forum Owner
CIMDA

Catherine

I think it is a good idea to do a complete blood profile for her. Also (this may seem strange) but perhaps the oldest bitch should also be checked out and have a complete blood profile done to make sure everything is okay physically. Sometimes when a dog is ill or old other dogs will pick on it.

It may be that now the puppies are mature they are vying for top dog position and there is a change in the hierarchy going on.

Some years ago I experienced two bitches start to have fights when the younger one was about 5 years old. It did not happen often thankfully but was quite frightening when it did. Most of the time they too would be the best of pals but now and again there would be a fight over a toy or during the excitement of visitors to the house. A breeder advised me to keep some oven trays handy (or something similar) and to clang them together to break up the fight or to prevent one.

I would try and give her more exercise (when you have made sure she is not ill) and would obviously keep the dogs in separate rooms when you have to go out and leave them at home.

I would still keep an eye on her thyroid anyway.

fee

Thank you all so much for your advice and help in this instance.
It is with a very sad heart I have to tell you we had to have the older bitch put down a few weeks ago (sorry I have not written sooner but it has broken our hearts), she attacked the younger bitch violently and would not stop, it took 4 of us to split it up and not without injury! We suspect there was something very wrong and unfortunately we had to  take  the decision that we could no longer risk our children getting hurt or for that matter the other dogs  :'( and she was put to sleep.
The house is a different place, no aggression or tension, just a mother who keeps her kids in check...we very much miss her and the decision was not taken lightly, the blood profile done on the mother came back clear with no issues.
We are sad, feel guilty but she will always live on in our hearts ...the good times and we have her daughter & grandchildren who she will live on in.
Again we would like to thank you all for your help , understanding, support and advice.
Fee & Allan x

Jo CIMDA

I'm sorry you had to make a difficult decision. 

I hope your dog family can live in harmony now.

Jo

Penel CIMDA moderator

So sorry to hear that, what a hard decision for you all x
Penel
(SLE, Surrey - UK)
Forum Owner
CIMDA