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Advice please - again!!

Started by Ros, February 08, 2013, 06:54:20 PM

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Ros

Hello, here I am again.  Just a bit stumped about something at the moment.  Before Dex was diagnosed with SRMA he was discovered to have "a suggestion of" something  they called metaphysial osteopathy, which they said was, effectively, "growing pains " afftecting his left wrist joint.  The "suggestion" meaning it was barely there but it was all they found on Xray.    His limp has been on and off since it was diagnosed 4 months ago, and before he was on the steroids I used to give him the odd dose of metacam, when it would usually subside.  His limp is quite pronounced at the moment and I have tramadol that I can give him for it.  But I have noticed that he now appears to have developed a deformity in the wrist joint (the wrist twists to one side), apparent when he walks, runs, and when he gives me his paw.

I'm wondering now if it's not necessarily the pain, but the deformity originating from the pain, which is causing the limp.  If so he's got it for life unless I can do something about it. 

Thing is though, I read in one of the posts that steroids can cause muscle and ligament weakness, so could the preds have made the situation worse?  I originally thought of hydrotherapy for this condition, but the vet said no to it even before he was diagnosed with SRMA, and now he's on steroids I'm sure it's a complete no-no, but he could do with some physio of some sort I think, so I'm going to see if I can find somebody.

Any advice/anyone with any experience of this would be appreciated.

Also, changing the subject entirely, Dex's face sort of shrivelled up and took on a really pinched in appearance as soon as he started on the steroids.  It's such a shame, he had a very full masculine face, a very handsome chappy. Is is normal for the preds to do this, and will I get my handsome lad back when the preds have finished?

Other news about Dex is, he's doing well, nearly back to his normail self but not quite.  He's imensely hungry and I'm consulting a nutritionist to see what we can come up with to give him a diet that will help fill him up without piling on the weight.

Thanks in advance, I know I'm a pest but it seems I'm not going away just yet :P

Happiness is a wet retriever

cracar

I am still fumbling about at the beginning of treatment for my girl too and I like to come on and read stories about dogs in recovery but something about your post hit home.  My little girl is 'starving' all the time!!lol  We literally cannot fill her ever and all her good training has gone out the window.  In fact, I doubt she could leave food sitting if her life depended on it!  She has a tendency to be a bit 'podgy' allready so instead of depriving her or putting more weight on, we fill up on veggies and fruit.  Carrots, brocoli, cauliflower, swede and sweet potatoes are favourites.  Mostly raw but sometimes roasted.   She also gets apples and melon but I watch the fruit because of the sugar content.  I am usually found around the discount veg section of tescos now!!lol  I feed Saff roughly 4 times per day of veggie meals to keep her feeling full.  Must be horrible for the steroids to make her hungry but not able to eat as she needs/wants.  Then she gets her meals twice a day on top of this.  We have switched Saff to a raw diet so she gets meat and bones at those mealtimes.  So she is fed about 6 times per day. ??? ;D

As for his face.  The preds cause muscle waste so could this not be what has happened to his larger face?  You know, muscle wastage round his cheeks and skull?  Just a thought.

Hope your boy is feeling better soon  x

Jo CIMDA

Hi Ros

My reply to Maxim probably applies to Dex too.  Very often the steroids will cause the wrist ligaments to stretch giving an appearance of long feet and sometimes they can catch their toes on the ground as they walk.  This sort of action would be steroid related, as is the loss of muscle on his head. It is known as a 'pred head'.  When dex is off steroids his head will fill-in with fat and he should look a lot better. 

Steroids do not help with any existing ligament or arthritis problem, in fact it can make the problem worse. So when faced with this sort of situation the only thing you can do is to reduce the preds as soon as possible, but without compromising the SRMA recovery, and this sometimes means introducing another immunosuppressant drug.   Perhaps your vet could tell if Dex does have a secondary problem with his front wrist by examining the movement of the joint.

It is normal for a dog on steroids to put on weight and sometimes it is not excessive weight gain but a re-distribution of fat. Weight gain is not necessarily diet related (but it is drug related), although I'm not suggesting you let them eat everything they want.  When the dog is off steroids or on a very low every-other-day dose, the fat deposits will go away.  I have known dogs to return to the showring or field trials and look fabulous after being treated with high dose steroids and no one would know any different.  We all want to do our best and that takes a lot of devotion and effort but don't stress too much about controlling the fat and weight because it is drug related and there is not a lot you can do about it - and it is temporary!  I worry if a dog is on high doses of steroids and it is not hungry.  At least when a dog is showing the expected side effects of steroids you have a good idea that the steroids are doing their job and that is your main objective.

Jo


Jo

Jo CIMDA

Hi Cracar

The post about Dex may apply to your problem too.

Jo

goldiepower

Quote from: Ros on February 08, 2013, 06:54:20 PM
Thing is though, I read in one of the posts that steroids can cause muscle and ligament weakness, so could the preds have made the situation worse?  I originally thought of hydrotherapy for this condition, but the vet said no to it even before he was diagnosed with SRMA, and now he's on steroids I'm sure it's a complete no-no, but he could do with some physio of some sort I think, so I'm going to see if I can find somebody.
Also, changing the subject entirely, Dex's face sort of shrivelled up and took on a really pinched in appearance as soon as he started on the steroids.  It's such a shame, he had a very full masculine face, a very handsome chappy. Is is normal for the preds to do this, and will I get my handsome lad back when the preds have finished?

Hi Ros

Chad very definitely had muscle wastage with the high dose of steroids, it was most noticeable on his head, shoulders and back legs. I tried taking him to hydrotherapy when his pred was down to a low dose, he hated it! Although he loved the sea, lakes and rivers I didn't dare let him swim there in case he got into trouble. When Dex is well enough to try I'm sure he will be braver than Chad was!

I will try to find some pics of Chad with the pred-head and afterwards when he was on the maintenance dose, hopefully that will help put your mind at rest about your lovely Dex.

Hugs from Chris & the Golden Boys
Qui me amat, amat canem meum

Ros

Hello everyone and thanks for all the support and encouragement.  I haven't go the hang of using quotes but I think you'll get the gist.  That's a very good regime you've got going there, Cracar. Someone else suggested veggies to me and I've made a start today with some carrots, which have gone down a treat!  If his guts cope OK with these I'll add something more adventurous in tomorrow.  As for the face, I had wondered about muscle weakness being the cause and now I know that the "pred-head" is an expected phenomenon, and that it's reversible, I'm feeling more reassured. 

It's also very reassuring to hear that dogs go on to great things, shows and field trials etc. looking just as fab as they did before it all started.  And I know that Chad lived a full and normal life and in fact was a bit of an obedience champ. All these things are very positive, I do appreciate hearing them, they're just what I need right now, so please keep them coming!!

Thanks, Chris, I'd love to see the pics of fabulous Chad.  And a "before and after" would be good. Actually I thinkg I'm being a bit silly, I should know really that my old Dex will come back.  I've seen a few pics of Chad, enough to know that he was a mighty handsome chap right up to old age.  it's just seeing my poor little baby looking so pathetic when he used to be a proud, magnificent animal makes it difficult to see into the future.  And actually, as you know, Chris, Dex is not really that ugly  :P.  .  I've been trying to include a pic of him taken today to prove it, but can't make the system work.  It might be interesting, if we could work out a way, to see pics of Chad and Dex side by side.  They look identical in photos don't they, it's uncanny

I've got an update on my previous post.  I've managed to make contact with a doggy physiotherapist who'll see me at the hydrotherapy pool  She'll do an assessment on Dex and decide what form of treatment would be best, both for his wrist problem and for the muscle wastage, which is, like Chad's, widespread, and paricularly noticeable on his chest.  Treatment may include the treadmill or hydrotherapy or a mix of both. I need a vet's referral of course, so whilst I'm sure they'll be in agreement to the physio (how could they not be really), not quite sure about hydrotherapy, but we'll see.  Dex has never swum before, but as you've pointed out, Chris, he should have no problem, with feet like that (they're  webbed!! )

Once again, thanks for all the input and feedback, I'll let you know how we get on  :)
.   
Happiness is a wet retriever

Penel CIMDA moderator

Sounds like a very good plan Ros, you're doing everything you possibly can.
When Saffy had severe muscle wastage from prolonged pred use, I took her to hydro as well, she loved it and I have some great memories.
Penel
(SLE, Surrey - UK)
Forum Owner
CIMDA

cracar

I haven't worked out the quotes yet either, Ros :-[

I got the tip from a raw forum I use about the veggies.  Mine eats anything and anyway right at this minute(she's usually so fussy) so I don't have any bother with the veggies but I have been told that if they don't eat them, sprinkle a little oil and bung them in the oven for a while.  Brings out the natural sugars and makes veggies more appetising.  I tried that for the kids, worked a treat!!lol

Isn't it lovely to hear of dogs LIVING with these illnesses.  Thanks so much goldiepower for sharing your experiences and everyone for that matter.  Gives the rest of us hope for the future that we are doing the right thing.  I'm getting a lot of 'shouldn't let her suffer' conversations at the minute from 'family' and 'friends' who think I'm a bit mad.  But I see improvement everyday.  And I love her.
So thanks.