Undiagnosed?

[cracar]

Thanks for the replies.  I was thinking not to let the pups owners know as they might think every little thing was this horrible thing starting but I suppose forewarned is forearmed.  I will contact them all this week.  I do keep in touch will all my pups owners so I can contact them no probs.  Also, the breeding won;t be an issue as the pups all have exemptions on the registration, which won't be lifted.  None of the pups were bought for breeding anyway so it's a non-issue(thankfully).  It's awful because it's a cumlination of many generations breeding, gone.  Just like that.  As it can't be tested for and I wouldn't take the chance, ever.  It's such an awful thing.

Saff has now been on the max dose for 13 days and her limp is back this morning again.  My vet doesn't want to reduce the dose till she stops limping as she thinks she will go into a total relapse?
She was given a 2 week strong antibiotic course before the steroids as my vet thought the joints/temp was an infection.  Obviously, when the AB's didn't work, they went down the steroid route and 'accidently' found a diagnosis that way.
My main worry is, I won't be able to reduce the steroids without her relapsing.  Can this happen?

[goldiepower]

Saff has now been on the max dose for 13 days and her limp is back this morning again.  My vet doesn't want to reduce the dose till she stops limping as she thinks she will go into a total relapse?
She was given a 2 week strong antibiotic course before the steroids as my vet thought the joints/temp was an infection.  Obviously, when the AB's didn't work, they went down the steroid route and 'accidently' found a diagnosis that way.
My main worry is, I won't be able to reduce the steroids without her relapsing.  Can this happen?

If this is SRMA or IMPA I am surprised her limp is back. BUT maybe she will respond better to Aza and pred together... I don't have experience of using Aza, so have to leave it to Penel and Jo to make recommendations.

Once she has the treatment that stops the immune system attacking itself you should be able very gradually to wean her off the steroids. Having said that, there is a chance of relapse and some dogs need to stay on preds for life at a low "maintenance" dose.

Chris & the Golden Boys

[cracar]

Ah, OK, I kind of get it now.  I was thinking she would need to stay on the max dose.  Thing is, I don;t think my vet has much experience in this type of thing as she is quite off-putting.  She keeps telling me that I need to make sure saffy has a decent quality of life!! Jeez, she's only 2! I'm not giving in on her quite yet!  I think it's because Saff is quite sore and depressed when she is really suffering but she is only limping at the min, not sore.  And....it's not a total relapse(but I think it's the preds that's stopping it).  I will take her back for her check up and we can talk about mixing up the steroids to get her in total remission before talking about cutting the steroids back.

PS  What do all you guys do about boosters? And kenneling?  Reason I ask is, we have a holiday booked in May and although my lot will be going to kennels, Saff's not getting her booster at the min so can't go.  (And I'm worried about sending her anyway TBH).

[goldiepower]

Jeez, she's only 2! I'm not giving in on her quite yet! 
PS  What do all you guys do about boosters? And kenneling?  Reason I ask is, we have a holiday booked in May and although my lot will be going to kennels, Saff's not getting her booster at the min so can't go.  (And I'm worried about sending her anyway TBH).

No, definitely not! SRMA and IMPA are very controllable, my boy Chad did competition obedience and went everywhere with me just like any other dog, he lived almost 12 years after he first got sick, he was a happy happy boy!

Boosters are a NO for AI dogs I'm afraid. Anything that is an assault on the immune system could cause a relapse. Do you have a friend who would take care of her while you're away? Or maybe the kennels would accept titre test results to show she has antibodies? If you're in the UK she could always come up to Bradford if she could cope with the naughty Golden Boys!

[goldiepower]

Thing is, I don;t think my vet has much experience in this type of thing as she is quite off-putting. 

Another thought... do you think your vet would talk to another vet who does have experience?

[cracar]

Hehe!!!Thanks Goldiepower! But I don't think your goldie boys could handle the little madam!  I have a family member that would take her but my preference would be to keep all the pack together but I will let her go to my cousin instead.  I was allready worrying about the kennels.

As for my vet, it's a rather large practise and we have been seeing the same vet since Saffy started getting not well.  She is not my usual vet as we normally see one of the partners(what with us having loads of pets and keeping the practise in the manner it has become accustomed!).  I thnk when we go back, I will ask for the older, experienced vet.  During the holidays, any vet was sufficing but now, we need the experience.

[goldiepower]

Ha ha! Well I'm glad you have somewhere she can go other than the kennels

Good idea about asking for a different vet, I hope you get someone more helpful and knowledgable!

Chris & the Golden Boys

[Penel CIMDA moderator]

And if that vet doesn't have experience in AI disease you ask him to speak to a vet at a vet college (RVC or similar) who does.  I think Saffy needs to be on the combination therapy of Aza and pred - she should not be limping on the max dose of pred.  Limping means it's not under control.
Definitely no boosters ever again. No kennels either - too stressful.
My Saffy was 3 when she got SLE - triggered by her booster jab.  None of my dogs are vaccinated nowadays.

[cracar]

Been back to see the vet today and decided to up the preds.  She really doesn't want to use the Aza as she feels it's quite an invasive drug.  She wants to blast with the preds(she put her on20mg/twice daily for a 12kg dog) and see how she goes with that.  I've to phone her on the 18th and let her know how she responded and we will revise again after that if she isn't showing any symptoms.

PS I asked the vet about letting saff go for walks and stuff and she said to take her for little toddles on-lead.  Is this advisable?  She's got loads of energy but I'm not too concerned about walking her or anything.  In fact, I would prefer to just let her potter about the house.

[Jo CIMDA]

Hi

Watch the side affects of this high dose and if she starts to go off her food and gets depressed and perhaps huffs and puffs too much then you may need to reduce it.

She may be limping because she does not have adequate synoval fluid in her joints.  Personally I think they need a change of scenery and a little gently walk does them good but I wouldn't over do it until she is much better.

Jo

[cracar]

God! Why does my bloody vet not tell me these things?!!! I had a go at her yesterday because I have learned more about her illness from this forum than from the vet, who I pay to know these things!! ~And now she has omited to inform me about side effects!!Pah!!

[cracar]

After having a read about (AGAIN) on here, I decided to up Saffy's dose to 5x5mgs pred twice daily.  She is still not symptom free.  She still limps when just starting to walk and struggles to get up and down after resting.
Don't get me wrong, she is loads better than she was but I can't see the point of keeping up the high dose of preds if they are not working?  Am I correct in thinking that if she is still limping, they can't reduce the preds?
This is the only symptoms that she is still showing.  Her joints have never been swollen and her temp is normal.  She isn't depressed or sick.  It's just the blasted restricted movements.  And it's only when she's been resting.  Could this just be the way she is now?  Or do we still not have control? 
I'm so confused 

Also, she is turned into a land shark.  No food is safe!!!!! She literally took food out of my mouth yesterday!  Think I may kill her before she is better   Where has my Saffy of old went?

[Jo CIMDA]

Hi

The problem with these autoimmune diseases is it can be difficult to differentiate between symptoms of the disease and side affects of the drugs, and also perhaps a totally unrelated reason for limping such as a ligament weakness/injury.

Does the limp go away when you increase the steroids?  It is very difficult to know if the disease process has ceased. Usually the history of dose and, duration of drugs, and the lack of clinical signs are all that can indicate if the disease is in remission and the only way to find out is to start a reducing drug regime. The treatment has to be balanced against the clinical signs of the disease and the side effects of the drugs. A dog can't stay on very high doses for a long time. Relapses are not uncommon in SRMA and IMPA but eventually the disease can be brought under control. 

Clearly her increased appetite is the steroids.  It is very early days yet, but it does get better, and she will return to her normal self.

Jo

[cracar]

No, the limp is there regardless of how many steroids she has had.  Funny thing is, it is different legs/front and back.  Some days, I will hardly notice a limp at all(some days she doesn't have any limp) then all of a sudden, the limp is back so bad that she is holding her leg aloft.  Same with getting up and down.  It has improved but then, last night, she couldn't get up after sleeping on the sofa and needed a lift!  But then, 2 days earlier, she was able to climb onto my knee herself. 

She was started on a low dose of preds which improved it straight away but it hasn't seemed to improve since that even though she is on almost treble the dose.

[Penel CIMDA moderator]

I don't think you can go any higher than 50mgs a day in a 12kg dog.  And she can only be on this dose for 10 days - 2 weeks max or you will start to see some serious side effects.
I really think she needs a combination of meds - either Azathioprine or another immune suppressant.
Could your vet talk to a specialist - I know she's not insured (at least I think you said that?) so you can't take her to one but a lot of vets will consult with specialists for free.
the shifting lameness you describe is exactly what my SAffy was like - but she responded to high dose preds within about 48 hrs each time.