Vaccination

[Jo CIMDA]

Hello.
I have just joined the CIMDA forum. I hope you can advise me please. I have two toy poodles. Coco is 10 and Candy is 8. Coco is well . Last summer Candy was diagnosed with SLO but the treatment almost killed her. She was on a drip for 2 days. I ceased all meds and she is fine now except for deformed nails.
She is now due annual vaccinations but I am very worried that she may react as she has this autoimmune disease.
The vet advised that she has the Leptospirosis vaccine as this only lasts a year and I  live in the middle of the Norfolk Broads. Apparently the teter  test does  not reveal the lepto situation in a dog.
I am struggling to know what to do.
What do you think?
Regards Glynis

[Jo CIMDA]

Hi Glynis and welcome.

I am so sorry to read that Candy nearly died from the treatment for SLO.  Was she on high doses of steroids?  Some autoimmune skin diseases, and in particular SLO,  can be treated very successfully without the use of steroids.  The majority of cases are treated with an immunomodulating antibiotic called doxycycline with niacinamide  and many other supplement such as essential fatty acids, biotin etc..  Should Candy ever need treatment again, please ask for details. 

As Candy has had an autoimmune disease, she is now known to have a genetic predisposition to autoimmunity and the recommendations for revaccinating a dog like Candy is  - you shouldn't.  A couple of years ago I went to a seminar at the Royal Veterinary College and I asked Prof. Catchpole if a dog that has had an AI disease should ever be vaccinated again or a spot-on treatment used and he replied "No".  He went on to say that the benefits must outweigh the risks and with a dog that is known to be genetically predisposed to autoimmunity, the risks are too high. 

Your dogs are aged 10 and 8.  I presume they have had regular vaccinations up to now, so for the 'core' vaccines parvovirus, distemper and hepatitis they will undoubtedly have protective antibody titres to these diseases present in their blood.  These are live attenuated virus vaccines and probably life long immunity can be achieved as long as the dog has been vaccinated as an adult or after the age of 16 weeks.   So you don't have to vaccinate either of them for these diseases anymore.  You can have an antibody titre test to prove this if you are not comfortable about not vaccinating them. Any presence of antibodies correlates to immunity. 

You are right about the lepto vaccine.  The titre tests do not reveal protective antibody titres to lepto because it is a killed virus vaccine and therefore the body does not produce antibodies to the lepto virus.  It is very unlikely that the vaccine will last up to one year.  Evidence has shown that is it more likely to last between 3-6 months only, so for some of that suggested 'year' duration of protection, the dogs will not be protected anyway.

Lepto is a killed virus vaccine and therefore a chemical  'adjuvant' has to be used to open the immune system to enable it to produce an
immune response.  These 'killed virus vaccines' are considered to be more likely to trigger an autoimmune response in a genetically predisposed animal and it is known that small dogs are most susceptible to a reaction.

Leptospirosis is a rare disease and there are over 250 different serovars (strains) of lepto in the UK but only a handful of strains can be vaccinated against. There are lots of reports of the vaccine Lepto 4 causing serious adverse reactions.

For a dog to contract lepto it has to be in contact of infected urine that has been passed by a rat that has the virus - not any old rat! They don't all have the virus.   Then the virus has to enter the dog's body by means of a cut to the skin or by the dog swallowing some infected urine matter, such as water or soil etc....  Given that lepto is a rare disease and relatively, only a few strains can be vaccinated against, one has to weigh up the risks of an adverse reaction to the vaccine and the real risk of the dog contracting the disease  (bearing in mind that only a few strains are covered by the vaccine and protection doesn't last one year duration and we would be led to believe). 

This risk assessment can only be done by the owner of the dog and based on the lifestyle of the dog , eg.,  dose the dog frequently grub about in rat infested water perhaps as a working gun dog or farm dog might. 

By the way, lepto can be successfully treated, so it is prudent for all dog owners, whether their dogs are vaccinated or not, to familiarise themselves with the disease symptoms.

Whatever you decide you must be happy with your decision and the only way to be happy is to do a lot of research and to be confident as you can be, that you are making the right decision for your dog.

You have to be comfortable about whether to vaccinate your dogs or not.  If you read  this document it might make you feel happier about your decision.

http://www.wsava.org/WSAVA/media/PDF_old/WSAVA-Vaccination-Guidelines-2015-Full-Version.pdf

Another good link:

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-lepto-vaccine-why-vets-give-it-yearly/

Jo

[Glyn]

Thank you so much.
I have just found your reply while trying to figure out how to leave a message on the forum. I am not very computer literate I'm afraid.
Candy was prescribed Doxycicline with niacinamide   and an omega supplement. Candy weighs almost 5 kg. The niacamide 250mg 1x every 8 hours.These are produced for humans only so I had to sign a waiver to use it for Candy. The problem ,I think, was because the tablets are 2 cm long, I crushed them . There was no chance of Candy swallowing them whole. I could not cut them up as they are covered in a plastic film ( now I know for slow release) and cutting resulted in producing sharp shards.
Although the vet did not think this caused the problem I am almost certain that the crushed powder damaged Candy's digestive tract. She coughed constantly sounding like a duck. She would not drink anything but she did eat. I put water in her mouth using a syringe. Of course this started at a weekend so by the Monday she had to be put on a drip for 2 days to rehydrate her. She was very poorly. She even looked very ill. Before this treatment I had all her nails removed as most of them were tearing loose. I did not opt for a digit to be removed to prove that it was defintely SLO as she had been losing nails over a few weeks.

I took Candy off all meds  after the drip. Her nails grew back tiny and deformed but she has been bouncing around like a puppy since. I do use anti flea treatment every 2 months and worm every 3 months with no apparent  reaction.

Coincidentally I have an autoimmune disease( Sjogren's syndrome )and part of my decision to not have a digit removed from Candy was led by the biopsy I had on my lip which confirmed the condition but froze my lip permanently. Also I am now wondering whether I should avoid the flu vaccination each year. For several years I have had the vaccination and got the flu anyway . Makes me think!

If Candy does not have further vaccinations should Coco be vaccinated?
Thank you very much again. I will read the documents you advised but I feel much reassured  and better informed.
Best wishes Glynis

[Jo CIMDA]

Hi Glynis

Despite the problems you have had with medicating Candy for SLO it seems she is in remission.  Let's hope she will remain in remission and you will never have to medicate her again for SLO, so limiting all potential trigger factors is essential and that includes preventative flea/worming treatments. If she doesn't have fleas or worms then don't give the chemicals.   A lot of this preventative treatment is unnecessary and it is just a reliable income for the vet.  Strip back all unnecessary chemicals as much as you can.   

Even though Coco doesn't have an autoimmune disease why vaccinate if she already has immunity to those core diseases?  It is known that live attenuated vaccines provide immunity for at least 9 years, if not for the life of the dog.  I would have thought Coco is well protected by now.   I'm sure when you read the WSAVA vaccination guidelines you will have more confidence, but to be sure you can have an antibody titre test done to prove immunity.  Seeing it written in black and white does give assurance and peace of mind. 

As for the lepto vaccine, the same applies to Coco.  This particular vaccine does not provide immunity for even the year duration that he vets will have clients believe, so you have to decide if this is necessary for Coco or not.  Lepto is not a 'core' vaccine and deciding to give it really depends on whether the dog is at high risk of contracting the disease but remember even if you give the lepto vaccine, for much of the following year she won't be protected anyway and she won't be protected for the majority of strains either.

Having said that you have to be comfortable with your decisions. 

Jo

[Glyn]

Thank you Jo,
You have been a great help. I have decided to stop the vaccinations for Coco and Candy. I will take them for annual checks.
Best wishes
Glynis